Amorphophallus-Forum.de

Hallo beccarii,

das Problem mit den falschen Namen ist vor allem, dass diese Knollen dann unter dem falschen Namen immer weiter gegeben werden - und wenn dann konjac als titanum zB bei i-bäh auftauchen, ist das für vor allem für die Käufer gar nicht mehr lustig ( sukkulentensammlung-doerr Sukkulentensammlung Dörr und lindtrom bei ebay )

Bei dem paeonifolius-Anbieter würde ich einmal davon ausgehen, dass er der Meinung ist, wirklich paeonifolius anzubieten und dass noch niemand ihn darauf aufmerksam gemacht hat, dass er damit wohl falsch liegt.....

Happy growing, Bernhard.

Happy growing, Bernhard.

Zitat von »Ortwin«

Hallo,

ich habe mir vor ca 2 Jahren ebenfalls Samen vom gleichen Anbieter bestellt; diese wurden allerdings hier im Forum (unter gleichzeitiger Einschaltung der Aroid-L) nicht als A. paeonifolius, sondern als A. koratensis ermittelt. Ich finde den Beitrag leider nicht mehr.
Von diesen Samen leben jetzt noch etwa 10 Pflanzen. Die Knollen hatten nach einem Jahr etwa 3cm Durchmesser.
Was auch noch gegen A. paeonifolius sprechen könnte ist, dass ich die Knollen den Winter über im leichten feuchten Substrat halte (was ja A. paeonifolius meines Wissens gar nicht mag). Bei vollkommen trockener Überwinterung sind mir alle Knollen vertrockent.

Gruß
Ortwin

Hallo Ortwin,

die aroid-L-mails findest Du hier: https://www.hort.net/lists/aroid-l/jun11/msg00022.html
Antworten unter follow-ups, references oder next by thread.......

Ich habe wegen der aktuellen Diskussion noch einmal Wilbert Hetterscheid und Alan Galloway angeschrieben - ich warte noch auf eine abschließende Antwort von WH und werde die Meinungen der beiden Experten dann hier weitergeben.....

Happy growing, Bernhard.

Amorphophile,

wie oben erwähnt, habe ich Wilbert Hetterscheid und Alan Galloway direkt angeschrieben und um ihre Meinung gebeten.
Ich kopiere die Originalmails gleich noch in diesen Beitrag - gegebenenfalls den Übersetzungbutton unten drücken.......

Zusammengefasst kann man sagen, dass Wilbert, wie schon einmal zu vor, vor allem auf Grund der rötlichen Blattstielfarbe zu koratiensis tendiert.
Zudem beschreibt er, das koratesis eher schlankere / dünnere Blattstiele und Brutknollen mache, wohin gegen paeoniifolius vergleichsweise dicke Blattstiele und dicke, kurze Brutknollen mache.
Diese Beschreibungen passen eigentlich sehr gut zu den "paeoniifolius", die wir alle aus Samen von squeaky-buffalos-tropical-seeds gezogen haben.

Alan hingegen schreibt, dass er die Merkmale, die Wilbert zu Differenzierung der beiden Arten beschreibt, in beiden Arten beobachtet habe und er die Unterscheidung nur anhand der Blüte machen würde.

Bezüglichder Lagerung der ruhenden Knollen äußert sich Wilbert leider nicht; Alan schreibt, dass er bei beiden Arten sowohl bei trockener Lagerung als auch bei Ruhe im Substrat Probleme / Verluste hat und er eine hohe Temperatur für entscheidend für die Ruhezeit der beiden Arten hält.

Wenn man nun hinzunimmt, dass der Anbieter (squeaky-buffalos-tropical-seeds) schreibt, dass er nur paeoniifolius-Blüten in seinem Bestand hat und koratensis in dem Gebiet von Thailand nicht vorkommt, muss man vielleicht annehmen, dass er Samen aus einem Bestand von einem sehr variablen Wildtyp von paeoniifolius über ebay verkauft.

So bleibt uns vielleicht wirklich nur abzuwarten, was die erste Blüte bringt - fraglich, ob wir das unter unseren Bedingungen so bald erleben.....

Happy growing, Bernhard.

P.S.: Hier die Originalmails (email-Adressen uns sonstiges, was nicht im www zufinden ist, gelöscht...) - umgekehrte Chronologie - also von unten nach oben lesen.....:

Hi Alan and Wilbert,

here are some very new pictures from Ortwin,who grew the plants from the Thai seeds... see last post #37

paeonifolius-Samen bei i-bäh

He writes that many petioles vary from year to year and the reddish colour vanishes more and more and turn into brown; only the petiole of the the plant in the 3rd pic is the same every year.

Do you think the variation fits to paeoniifolius?

I guess this will be the last mail/question from my side - I hope that this was not too tiring for you.....

Thanks, Bernhard.


Am 30.08.2015 um 10:34 schrieb Bernhard ...:
> Hi Alan and Wilbert,
>
> I remembered that this request was already sent to the aroid-L in 2011 (incl. pics):
> https://www.hort.net/lists/aroid-l/jun11/msg00022.html
>
> Wilbert's suggestion at that time was k due to petiole colour, but there were also comments on the variation in petiole colour in p.
>
> Cheers, Bernhard.
>
> Am 30.08.2015 um 10:06 schrieb Bernhard ...:
>> Hi Alan,
>>
>> OK, I could keep the Thai spec. in slightly moist substrate; without and dry lead to dehydration.
>> I have not had a lot of paeoniifolius, but have killed some big suran from Indian food stores in damp substrate; therefore I got the impression "paeoniifollius bone dry and soilless until the bud grows and roots are visible. Let alone I finally killed my orange-sized seedgrown paeoniifolius (different seeds source) probably due to too low temps after potting.
>>
>> To summarize your observations - no way to distingush p and k prior flowering.....
>>
>> Thanks Alan for your time and information.
>>
>> Wilbert, any differing observations on storing conditions from your side?
>>
>> Breg, Bernhard.
>>
>> Am 30.08.2015 um 01:31 schrieb Alan Galloway:
>>>
>>> Bernard,
>>> I have difficulty storing both k & p either dry or in soil...I think the key is to keep them potted doring dormancy slightly moist, but also rather warm.
>>> Alan
>>> On Aug 30, 2015 12:10 AM, "Bernhard ..." <....> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Wilbert and Alan,
>>>
>>> thanks for your time and replying so quick !
>>>
>>> Wilbert, when reading your lines I agree that the picture of the seller from Thailand
>>>
>>> http://www.ebay.de/itm/45-x-FRESH-VOODOO…=p2047675.l2557
>>>
>>> and the one from the German seller, who bought the seeds from the seller from Thailand
>>>
>>> http://www.ebay.de/itm/Amorphophallus-ko…%3D262001324712
>>>
>>> http://www.ebay.de/itm/Amorphophallus-ko…%3D262001324712
>>>
>>> fit to paeoniifolius.
>>> In the Thailand pics a wild type paeoniifolius with a rough petiole,
>>> in the case of the German seller rather smooth petioles
>>> (BTW, he was informed after his first offer by two Amorph-lovers that his plant is T. venosum; thereafter I contacted him and informed him that it is definitely an Amorph and after reading the discussion in our forum he changed the name to koratensis...)
>>>
>>> Wilbert, I do also agree with the observation that I never saw the purplelish-red petiole in paeoniifolius but many of the seedlings of the Thai seller show this colour.
>>>
>>> compare: paeonifolius-Samen bei i-bäh
>>>
>>> post # 10 ( mostly reddish petioles but also one green) and the link in that post
>>>
>>> http://abrimaal.pro-e.pl/araceum/unid/amo2.htm
>>>
>>> but seedlings from the Thai source may also be green or nearly black; see post # 33 on page 2 of the discussion above.
>>>
>>> I do not know the shape of the offsets.but the German seller wrote that his spec. pops up all over in his greenhouse / pots since he recyles old substrate for his bananas and Amorphs, too.
>>>
>>> I would also agree with the slenderness of the petioles of the Thai source I and forum members grow; but this does not necessaryly fit to the German offfers at ebay.
>>>
>>>
>>> After your comment, Alan, that you saw the differential traits Wilbert describes (for k or p) in both spec. the differentiation might not be possible prior flowering.
>>>
>>>
>>> There remains one point: storage requirements during dormancy.
>>> I noticed that the tubers from the Thai source dehydrate when stored dry with out substrate - this is confirmed by all forum members. The tubers survive only when stored in slightly moist substrate.
>>> On the other hand I had never success when storing paeoniifolius in substrate; it easily rots.
>>>
>>> Have you made such an observation, too? And would you thing that this is a reliable trait to distinguish paeoniifolius from koratensis?
>>>
>>> I'd be grateful for a short comment on that point.....
>>>
>>> Best regards, Bernhard.
>>>
>>>
>>> Am 29.08.2015 um 16:23 schrieb Alan Galloway:
>>>>
>>>> Bernard,
>>>> For the most part I agree with Wilbert, but the characteristis he distinguishes paeoniifolius from koratensis (petiole color, roughness and stolon shape, length) I have seen in both species. Therefore I would only distinguish these species by flower alone.
>>>>
>>>> Alan
>>>> On Aug 29, 2015 7:20 PM, "Wilbert Hetterscheid" <...> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi Bernhard,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> As far as I can judge from the relevant pictures it is paeoniifolius. Recognizing this from koratensis in a non-flowering state is not always possible and hinges on the presence or absence of certain characters of the petiole, and of the tuber. In the pictures you’ll see a fairly smooth petiole, which to my mind never/rarely occurs in koratensis. Also many/most koratensis have a shade of purplish-red in the petiole, a color never present in paeoniifolius. Conversely the somewhat greyish green colors in the pictures is something I never saw in koratensis. The offsets of paeoniifolius lastly are always short and broad, those of koratensis often longer and thinner, much more rhizomorphic. Generally koratensis has more slender petioles whereas those of paeoniifolius can get really thick. This becomes a trifle problematic when Am. scaber is synonymized with koratensis (which I have a good mind of doing). Then we get really fat petioles into the nature of koratensis.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Alan has grown quite some koratensis so he may have additional observations.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>>
>>>> Wilbert
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Van: Bernhard [mailto:...]
>>>> Verzonden: zaterdag 29 augustus 2015 13:02
>>>> Aan: Wilbert Hetterscheid; Alan Galloway
>>>> Onderwerp: paeoniifolius - koratensis differentiation
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Dear Wilbert,
>>>> Dear Alan,
>>>>
>>>> could you please take a few minutes to read the message below and share your experience?
>>>>
>>>> The final question is, if paeoniifolius and koratensis can be differentiated prior flowering and/or by the storage requirements during dormancy ( bone dry vs slightly moist substrate).
>>>>
>>>> The discussion came up after a German guy offered an amophophallus as Typhonium venosum
>>>> (if you want to read the discussion: was könnte das sein bei i-bäh sein?
>>>> translation button at the very end of that page) and it turned out that he bought the seeds via ebay as paeoniifolius from the same source as some forum members who think that the spec is rather koratensis.
>>>>
>>>> In the forum thread obove and the following
>>>>
>>>> paeonifolius-Samen bei i-bäh
>>>> Amorphophallus koratensis vs. paeoniifolius
>>>>
>>>> you will find pictures of the paeoniifolius/koratensis seedlings and some observations about the plants.
>>>>
>>>> I'd be grateful to get to know your opinion.
>>>>
>>>> Rgds, Bernhard. (aka mr.titanum at ebay)
>>>> ....
>>>>

>>>> =====================
>>>> messages via ebay with http://www.ebay.de/usr/squeaky-buffalos-tropical-seeds aka
>>>> ...
>>>>
>>>> ==============================
>>>> Dear Ian ....,
>>>>
>>>> you might be interested to know that the paeoniifolius seeds you offer regularly turned out to be Amorph. koratensis at some places.
>>>> See: paeonifolius-Samen bei i-bäh
>>>> I know that one forum member asked you about this last year, but the observation, that the tubers dessicate/ dehydrate when store dry without soil ans survive only when stored in damp substrate speaks for koratensis as species since paeoniifolius has to be stored dry and will rot when stored moist.
>>>>
>>>> Just FYI.....
>>>>
>>>> regards, Bernhard ....
>>>> ====================================
>>>>
>>>> Hi Bernhard.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for your email.
>>>> Your saying that some of the seeds we sell regularly turn out to be koratensis,
>>>> That is impossible as the seeds we sell are taken from the same plant as the pictures in our description.
>>>> So how can this happen?
>>>> We have sent these seeds to various places ie America/Europe for confirmation on what seeds they are.
>>>> All came back with the same answer AMORPHOPHALLUS PAEONIIFOLIUS.
>>>> In all the years of selling this species and we have sold absolute thousands you are the only person ever to say that they are koratensis.
>>>> The koratensis looks nothing like the PAEONIIFOLIUS, and we do not have koratensis growing in this part of Thailand.
>>>> Are you saying the pictures in my description are koratensis ?
>>>>
>>>> Regards
>>>> ==============================
>>>>
>>>> Dear Ian,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> thanks for your reply!
>>>>
>>>> First of all – the picture of the flower in your offeres is surely a paeonifolius and I do not doubt that this is the plant or these are the plants you take the seeds from.
>>>> And the picture of the plant looks like paeoniifolius to me, too.
>>>> And yes, the flower of koratensis looks nothing at all like paeonifolius.
>>>>
>>>> But furthermore the leaves of koratensis and paeonifolius resemble each other, so judging only from the leaf is hard to do.
>>>> However, in our Forum there are contributions that say that they do not know any paeonifolius that shows the reddish colour of the petiole/leaf stem that is found in the seedlings of your seeds.
>>>> Furthermore many forum members noticed that the tubers going back to seeds from you when strored without substrate / soil during dormancy regularly dessicate / dehydrate and die. This is very uncommon in paeonifolius.
>>>> On the other side forum members state that koratensis dehydrates ans dies when stored dry and therefore has to be stored in slightly moist substrate, which on the other hand leads to rotting in paeonifolius that has to be stored dry in order not to rot.
>>>> These observations led to the opinion that your paeoniifolius seeds are probalbly koratensis.
>>>>
>>>> However, no one has grown seedlings going back to your seeds to flowering, which would show the species.
>>>>
>>>> If you want to read the posts in our forum you can do so; I forgot to mention that there is a translation button at the very end of the page:
>>>> paeonifolius-Samen bei i-bäh
>>>>
>>>> What makes your argumentation of course very sensible is that you say that koratensis is not growing in your part of Thailand.
>>>> So the argumentation of the forum members might be wrong.
>>>> I guess I might ask Wilbert Hetterscheid and Alan Galloway about their observation on the desiccation tolerance of koratensis and the storing conditions of paeonifolius and koratensis.
>>>> Since they are both probably the persons with the widest experience itmight shed some more light on the issue.
>>>>
>>>> If you want, I can forward your answer in the forum so that forum members see your clarifying lines.
>>>>
>>>> Best regards, Bernhard.
>>>>
>>>> ==================================
>>>> Hi bernhard.
>>>>
>>>> I would appreciate it if you kept up to date with your findings.
>>>>
>>>> Kind Regards
>>>> Ian